The Three Things I Don't Like About Blue Rose

[ElectricPaladin]

THAT title should get me some attention!

There are three things I don't like about Blue Rose, and I am considering kicking them out of my version of the setting. I'd like to get your collective opinion on them. Also, I'd like to start some discussion and debate, because the epic deadness of this board is depressing me.

The three things I don't like about Blue Rose, who are all on the verge of finding themselves kicked out of my Aldea are:

1. The Night People: they're orcs. What are orcs doing in my romantic fantasy? I have no problem with orcs and orcish creatures in games and stories where they feel appropriate, but they seem out of place in Blue Rose. Firstly, they feel entirely pasted in. No information is given on their culture, and very little information is given on their temperment, most of it tangential. It's almost as though the developers are saying: "They're D&D half-orcs. You know what D&D half-orcs are like. Play that." Secondly, the Night People are not present in Blue Rose's source material. Tamora Pierce, Mercedes Lackey, Diane Duane, and Dianna Wyne Jones tend to write all-human or nearly all-human worlds - orcs and their ilk belong in Tolkenoid epic fantasy. Don't get me wrong, I love Tolkenoid epic fantasy, but that's not what Blue Rose is trying to emulate.

2. The Vata: Vata'sha, Vata'an, Vata'zin; the whole mess. See above about feeling pasted in. Also see above about being out of place, because, as the Night People are to orcs, so to are the Vata and their ilk to elves. Finally (and this applies to both, but more so to the Vata'things), as I wrote in another thread, what I like most about non-human species in fantasy games is their culture and perspective, something the Vata, as basically a race of mutants, lack. The Night People's culture may be almost entirely ignored, but at least it is implied that it exists.

3. Spirit Dancers: The Night People are orcs in funny hats; the Vata are elves in funny hats; and the spirit dancers are monks in funny hats. As dancing ecstatic religious types, I'm entirely ok with them. Unfortunately, in an adventuring context, they are only useful as unarmed combat warriors. Such things don't seem to fit in a classical european fantasy setting.

I'm a bit less serious about wanting to toss the Spirit Dancers than I am about tossing the Vata and the Night People. I mean, Tamora Pierce included martial artists in her Tortall setting, and they were an interesting deviation from the setting. Giving them a quasi-religious feel is fun; a good way to intergrate them into the setting without making them come from the far away mysterious asian kingdom.

What bugs me about the Night People, Vata, and Spirit Dancers is that they feel like pandering on the part of the writers. It's almost as though they were trying to make the game as much like D&D as possible, rather than faithfully sticking to the source material and its conventions, which bugs me. I like what's different about Blue Rose. I want to play Blue Rose - I don't want to play D&D in a funny hat.

[Stareyes]

I do recall some of Mercedes Lackey's villains being big on the 'playing mad scientist and creating new creatures' (Maar (sp?) and all his incarnations). I also recall some of her heroic high-power mages of the past doing so -- the griffons at least were created by a benevolent mage, and it's implied that the kyree and the hertesi (sp?) were as well. (You can kind of tell that I haven't read the books in question for a while) So, I could buy groups of refuge creations of the Sorcerer Kings trying to make a living as something other than evil-minions.

But, I agree with you on one thing. They didn't need to just use the Half-Orc stats from D&D. I didn't particularly like the Half-Orc stats in the first place, and I don't like them repackaged and shoved into a new setting. Even a few attribute tweaks (or getting rid of the two -1s like the True20 book did) would work with some expanded setting material.

[Klaus Æ. Mogensen]

I'm not too bothered by the Night People - I see them as examples of how creatures made to be servants of evil might be redeemable. They are also useful as targets of racism, especially if Kernish raiding parties tend to be mostly Night People. If you feel they lack a culture, then make one up.

I feel the Vata are unnecessary to the setting, but I don't feel so badly about them that I'm going to expunge them. Anyway, one of my players has great fun playing a Vata'sha (a refugee from Kern) who's afraid of sunlight (wears heavy, hooded robes even in midsummer).

I honestly haven't given much thought to spirit dancers. I don't have any plans for them showing up in my campaign.

Anyway, I do agree that Blue Rose carries a lot of unnecessary ballast from D&D, including some feats that make little sense in BR. It might be interesting to see a second edition of the BR book, either based on standard True20 or some even more simplified (yet flexible) rules.

- Klaus

[JonathanC]

I actually have no problem with the Spirit Dancers, but I do agree that the Night People seem...kind of out of place. They are basically the only ugly people in a world full of beauty, nobody likes them, and the only place where they aren't going to be killed or shunned on sight is in Central Aldis. Unless you've got some players with a serious emo complex, they aren't suitable for PCs, and they are of limited use as NPCs, unless you're going to ignore the stuff about them not being evil and just use them as villains. They don't seem to have gained much of a places in Aldin society, so they're basically just a funny looking underclass in a society that's supposed to be too enlightened to have an underclass.

[Ghola]

... They don't seem to have gained much of a places in Aldin society, so they're basically just a funny looking underclass in a society that's supposed to be too enlightened to have an underclass.

To me this is the whole point - the people of Aldis aren't perfect even though they try. They've eliminated many prejudices but they can't rid themselves of the last few - and it may not be possible for a human society to be completely inclusive.

[ElectricPaladin]

To me this is the whole point - the people of Aldis aren't perfect even though they try. They've eliminated many prejudices but they can't rid themselves of the last few - and it may not be possible for a human society to be completely inclusive.

I'm with you. I have no problem with the idea of a sorcerously created race that is a challenge to Aldin tolerance. My problem is that they are half-orcs in funny hats.

[JonathanC]

... They don't seem to have gained much of a places in Aldin society, so they're basically just a funny looking underclass in a society that's supposed to be too enlightened to have an underclass.

To me this is the whole point - the people of Aldis aren't perfect even though they try. They've eliminated many prejudices but they can't rid themselves of the last few - and it may not be possible for a human society to be completely inclusive.

The problem is that they don't really challenge much of anything. They're discriminated against for reasons that are...totally accurate. They really are stupid, uncivilized savages, their stat modifiers say so. A Night People bard is going to sound awful, a Night People scholar is going to be measurably inferior to a scholar of any other race...they're a walking, talking (or grunting, rather) argument in favor of racism. Why would PCs really want to stick up for them, except for out of pity for a lesser being?

[reverend keith]

They're discriminated against for reasons that are...totally accurate. They really are stupid, uncivilized savages, their stat modifiers say so. A Night People bard is going to sound awful, a Night People scholar is going to be measurably inferior to a scholar of any other race...they're a walking, talking (or grunting, rather) argument in favor of racism. Why would PCs really want to stick up for them, except for out of pity for a lesser being?

We are talking about stat averages, right? Just because the average Night People scholar or bard is going to be inferior to another, doesn't mean that all Night People are inferior lessing beings that need the pity of the Aldeans to be worth sticking up for.

[JonathanC]

They're discriminated against for reasons that are...totally accurate. They really are stupid, uncivilized savages, their stat modifiers say so. A Night People bard is going to sound awful, a Night People scholar is going to be measurably inferior to a scholar of any other race...they're a walking, talking (or grunting, rather) argument in favor of racism. Why would PCs really want to stick up for them, except for out of pity for a lesser being?

We are talking about stat averages, right? Just because the average Night People scholar or bard is going to be inferior to another, doesn't mean that all Night People are inferior lessing beings that need the pity of the Aldeans to be worth sticking up for.

Actually, it kinda does. Right there in the book it says that Night People are stupid and unpleasant in comparison to everyone else...hence the stat modifiers. Even the smartest Night People person will never reach the same potential as a human. And going by the flavor text, they don't have much going for them either. They haven't reached any positions of power or influence, they don't contribute anything to Aldin Society, and the only place where they're considered useful (Kern) uses them as overseers for human slaves.

It would be one thing if we had this race of ugly, good-natured, intelligent people in a society that considers itself flawless and accepting. That's a real challenge to Aldis' claims of enlightenment. But what we have are a race of ugly, dumb, rude people.

[Jonathan Moyer]

What bugs me about the Night People, Vata, and Spirit Dancers is that they feel like pandering on the part of the writers. It's almost as though they were trying to make the game as much like D&D as possible, rather than faithfully sticking to the source material and its conventions, which bugs me. I like what's different about Blue Rose. I want to play Blue Rose - I don't want to play D&D in a funny hat.

I agree with you in large part - Night People, Vata, and Spirit Dancers are basically a Romantic Fantasy take on old D&D chestnuts. However - ironically enough - I think they are kind of cool.

[Jonathan Moyer]

And going by the flavor text, they don't have much going for them either. They haven't reached any positions of power or influence, they don't contribute anything to Aldin Society, and the only place where they're considered useful (Kern) uses them as overseers for human slaves.

According to the corebook, this is wrong. On page 27 it says

In Aldis, night people have proven they can be both trusted members of society and fierce warriors in service to the kingdom. Despite this, their brutish and hulking appearance frightens some of their compatriots, especially refugees from Kern and Jarzon. Most Aldin night people are exceptionally loyal to the kingdom, for they know of no other land that would grant them citizenship. In Jarzon, they are killed; in Kern, they are enslaved; and in Rezea, they are mistrusted and driven away if they dwell too closely to the Rezean's hunting grounds.

So it's quite clear that, given a chance, night people have proven to be valuable, contributing members of society.

Page 27 also says that while some Kernish night people relish serving the Lich King

... others hate it. [They] work to undermine the Lich King's rule however they can and are models of how the Sorcerer Kings failed when they sought to make the night people a completely subservient and Shadow-tainted race, for the night people have always retained a glimmer of their ancestors' humanity.

This clearly states that despite their brutish appearance and manner, the night people have no inherent tendency to good or evil (just like humans). Indeed, some night people are so heroic that they strive to undermine the objectively evil rule of the Lich King in the Lich King's own territory. I'd say these night people are contributing something very useful to Aldin society - indeed, they are contributing something very useful to the entire world.

World of Aldea goes into a little more depth about how night people interact with others. On page 17, it says

Recent refugees from Kern often have trouble dealing with night people, since the refugees see the night people as monsters who oppressed them and who still oppress the people they left behind in Kern. Although the wisest of the night people know only time can conquer such
deep-rooted fears and prejudices, some of the more hot-tempered night people argue loudly with those who disparage their kind. Sometimes these shouting matches escalate into violence.

For all their alleged stupidity, this passage indicates that there are wise and patient night people. It also mentions that some night people are offended by Kernish stereotypes, and to some extent I can understand their point of view. Despite appearances and given their service to Aldis, the night people simply don't deserve being called monsters, and I think it's natural to get upset when that happens. That doesn't condone violence, of course, but if someone called a black person, or a Catholic person, or a Jew, or whatever a monster I don't think it's out of the question for those people to be offended.

It would be one thing if we had this race of ugly, good-natured, intelligent people in a society that considers itself flawless and accepting. That's a real challenge to Aldis' claims of enlightenment. But what we have are a race of ugly, dumb, rude people.

What we have is a race of ugly, "dumb" (but no less wise or caring), and "rude" (although I can't really find any passage in the books where it says night people are rude so much as having menacing looks) who are unfairly stereotyped. According to the corebook, the night people have demonstrated their loyalty and made valuable contributions to Aldis and are fiercely protective of their adopted kingdom. To assert otherwise is to ignore the facts.

[JonathanC]

They have penalties to both intelligence and charisma; hence they are both dumb and rude. Even the passages you quote state that despite the "good works" of Aldin Night People, they are still disdained by some of their compatriots. Their stat blocks clearly define them as stupid and unlikeable. I fail to see how the stereotype is unfair.

[reverend keith]

They have penalties to both intelligence and charisma; hence they are both dumb and rude.

I have to agree with Jonathan Moyer here, and also point out again that you are still completely glossing over the concept of averages. The average night person has a lower Intelligence and Charisma that the average human. That doesn't mean that all of them are dumb and rude. Just as there is with humans, there is bound to be quite a bit of variation, and thus some are more intelligent than their racial averages (just as there are less intelligent ones, or weaker ones, or etc. etc. etc.). The penalties influence the final score, but doesn't remove the fact that there is variation within those scores.

Even the passages you quote state that despite the "good works" of Aldin Night People, they are still disdained by some of their compatriots.

That whole "you come from people that enslaved us, and are currently trying to enslave us" aspect of Aldean history might be a better explanation for that. Fear of Kern and it's inhabitants certainly isn't imaginary. As Ghola pointed out, Aldeans try not to be prejudicial, but they aren't perfect and are just as fallible as everyone else is.

[ElectricPaladin]

It seems like we've tripped upon the essential problem with racial characteristics that manipulate core statistics - they tend to essentialise and pigeonhole characters of that race and complicate efforts to determine what is true about the race in general and what is true about individual members of that race. This is one of the reasons that I've moved away from systems that have such characteristics in the first place and towards systems that use them sparingly and only for physical characteristics.

That is, I have a much easier time buying a species that has an inborn physical tendency towards being tall and willowy (high Dexterity, low Constitution) than I do buying a species meant to be stupid or brutish, because I have a hard time accepting the idea that race - a concept I consider outmoded and artificial anyway - has any effect on mental ability.

Anyway... the fact is, the Vataspawn are pretty much doomed in my personal Aldea (with the exception of this one character I have who plays with their insufficiencies as a culture), but I must admit I like the idea of a species bred by the Sorcerer Kings for evil, currently employed by Jarek in Kern, but with many members looking for a new life elsewhere. What can we invent together to replace the Night People?

(As an aside, I'm moving back towards letting the Spirit Dancers back into the setting, if they promise to be good and pick up after themselves)

[JonathanC]

You could try something with a vaguely demonic appearance, ala the Dranei from World of Warcraft. Sacrilege? Perhaps, but if you think about it, a Satyr/Faun-like race seems a bit more genre appropriate for Romantic Fantasy, IMO. Tall, cloven-hooved, sharp horns...the Jarzoni would be terrified of them on site, and their fiendish appearance could be off-putting even in Aldis.

Alternatively, perhaps some kind of darkspawn Rhydan? An anti-Unicorn?