True20 Variants and Power Systems

[Periwinkle]

A lot of discussion has taken place on this message board about the True20 powers system: about simply revising it, or developing it into a new system altogether. I've seen many players refer to the current powers system as one of their complaints with True20. Seems most agree that the powers system needs cleaning up at the least, and would benefit from being expanded somehow.

As I mentioned in another thread, I have a few tidbits to share. I've been working on a kind of True20 homebrew game system for a long time, and it's come a long way. The brunt of this work has been on my powers system that started years ago.

The rules have been in three major iterations, with the current form being the third. Multiple posts should be required to explain all the key details. I'd been waiting since last week to have time to start getting into it, and now that I have it, problems sprung up with my computer. So, try to bear with me if it takes a bit.

Anyway, I'll give some background. A few years ago, I began a True20 campaign with my playgroup (which is still running today, actually ). Already more than happy to tinker with the game - which True20 seemed to welcome fully - I came up with some ways to suit the game to the campaign setting and offer more choices to the players. In addition to a number of overall play rules made to fit the group, I wanted a flexible means of making characters very personalized.

It began with the stunt system. The idea was that one could define stunts for their powers, various additional uses for those powers custom-fitted to the character. In practice, this naturally worked out for even more than powers. Skills, combat skills, even feats became tailored in all sorts of ways. We used existing rules as a model. I allowed characters to have a set number of stunts based on their level. My players created batches of personalized stunts for all their characters, reviewed and approved by me as Narrator.

This was fun, but was very informal. However, the main idea remained a big part of the later iterations. The next iteration meant a different form for characters and game statistics in general, some of which are very much like houserules and variants that this board's members have already developed.

Characters have a universal progression for attacks, defenses, etc. The core formula is 1/2 the character's level + the Key Ability of the relevant characteristic, as well as a small number of other modifiers (such as Role Bonuses, etc.). Defenses are passive, like Dodge/Parry in True20 core or like Defense Classes in M&M 3E. You make an attack roll against the relevant defense, and the amount by which you roll over- or undershoots the target defense determines your degrees of success or failure (also like M&M 3E). You don't typically have to make multiple rolls for an attack to work: for instance, you don't have to try to hit a target's Dodge to be able to then make an attack against Will. You simply roll against Will and see if it hits (and by how much).

Now, to how powers work. All characters use a universal trait system, with three primary types of traits: combat skills, (regular) skills, and powers. Traits are acquired in Ranks. A Rank, in my system, is rather different than how the term is used in core True20. Ranks range from 1 to 5, with Rank 0 indicating being completely untrained. A character's max Rank in any given trait has a hard cap depending on the character's level (for instance, a level 5 character can only have up to a Rank 2 trait). This cap is referred to as the Character Rank.

A Rank in a trait represents an instance of training. A martial artist hits harder with more Ranks in her primary combat skills, just as a psychokinetic mutant gains finer control over fire with more Ranks in his Fire Shaping power. Your bonus to checks with a trait increases with Rank, as do the benefits of all the trait's associated effects.

A trait acts as a container, linking together a number of effects. The different effects that are part of a trait are called elements. You can add elements to this container or even modify elements that are already part of it. This, essentially, is how stunts now work. All the elements put together inside the container use the container's Rank to determine their effectiveness.

Below are some benefits conferred by increased Rank:

Checks: For any trait, you gain a +3 bonus to checks with it for every rank. Thus, a Rank 1 skill has a check modifier of 1/2 level + 3 + Ability, whereas a Rank 5 has one of 1/2 level + 15 + Ability.
Combat Skills: Training in a combat skill grants proficiency with some class of armament or improves a combat maneuver. 1 Rank in a weapon skill grants a flat bonus to attack rolls with that weapon. The base damage modifier of an attack is either the weapon's damage value or your Rank in the relevant skill, whichever is highest. So, if a sword has a base damage value of +3, a swordfighter with Rank 5 in Swordfighting will deal +5 damage instead of +3. 2 or more Ranks also grants the character an additional stunt with the armament or maneuver, such as some kind of special attack.
Skills: Much of the use of skills remains tied to the character's skill check modifier, which scales with Rank. As expected, trained only uses of skills aren't useable unless a character has at least 1 skill Rank. 2 or more Ranks with a Skill grants a character a free skill stunt, much like with combat skills.
Powers: Training in a power grants the benefit of all of that power's elements to the character. In addition, any damaging attack via the power has a base damage value equal to the power Rank.

You could also consider Devices a separate category, if you wished, or refine Powers into a number of subcategories. Some might not prefer to consider non-supernatural traits 'powers,' so classifying them as a different type of trait would work perfectly fine.

It wasn't until about the third (and present) iteration that the metric for trait creation and trait costs became more ironed out. I decided to go with a character points system early on. However, 1 point is equal to 1 feat, so the economy remains roughly similar to having a number of feats based on level - you simply need more of them to account for allotting 5 or more to complete training in a trait. Costs are as follows:

Feats: As I mentioned above, a feat costs 1 point. Feats, by and large, aren't ranked, and they are general access. Anything that should be restricted to particular concepts or should be Ranked are instead some other type of trait.
Combat Skills: Combat Skills cost 1 character point per Rank.
Skills: Skills cost 1 character point per Rank.
Powers: Standard powers cost 1 character point per Rank, though some may cost more depending on how many elements are built into them.
Adding Elements: Adding an element to a trait structure costs 1 to 4 points, varying from element to element.

Creating powers (or other traits, as the case may be) from scratch by weaving together elements is pretty simple, not unlike power creation in M&M. The major component of this process is concerned with power elements and effects, which I will begin to describe next.

[Periwinkle]

The core of this effects-based system are trait elements. A power is a container for these elements, and the container has limited capacity. The room that a trait has in it is measured by a unit I termed "slots."

A standard 1 point/Rank trait has 4 slots of room. It's also true that if a power contains elements worth 8 slots, this would cost 2 points/Rank. Most elements take up 1 slot, some take up more.

Linking additional elements to a trait costs 1 point for every slot the element takes up. Therefore, adding 4 slots to a standard power costs 4 points. This is where there's a difference in cost. As I just said, every 4 slots is 1 point/Rank, or 5 points for a fully Ranked power. Or it can be 4 points. Where's the extra point coming from?

There are a few reasons for this. Firstly, a power is rarely just the sum of its elements. I want to preserve the feeling of powers and other traits in True20 as being very skill-like, so the container itself confers some of its own value. Much like descriptors for effects in M&M, the power has its own identity as part of the character's narrative aspects. Indeed, they are not unlike Aspects from FATE. Sometimes it's not always strictly about what the game mechanics say. Having a particular trait may have special value in the story - one character with Ghost Sight might become favored in dealings with the spirits haunting a an abandoned castle, even though the trait itself doesn't necessarily have any effect which improves interactions. Any number of on-the-fly improvisations might be called for in a scene of the narrative, covered by a power check or Conviction point. All of these adaptations are guided by the way the entire power as a whole has been defined. In a sense, then, the "extra point" is for the benefits that are built into the trait structure as a base.

Secondly, if you plan on making custom traits, it allows some streamlining of numbers. In many situations you can just round, resulting in somewhat cleaner costs like [3 x Rank points] instead of [1 x Rank + 8 points]. It's like paying on time instead of giving a lump sum.

Lastly, it's important to note that this is simply my default metric. There's no reason it can't be adapted to suit one's purpose. As I will mention in my following post, the structure is intended to permit a range of options.

I am not going into detail on all the trait elements currently designed (as it would take forever). But I do want to tell you about some of the basics.

Stunts
Originally, a stunt was a term I used to indicate any addition to an existing trait, regardless of what the addition was. Now, the term has changed to mean a special type of element. A stunt is a mini-container for effects. Each stunt is unique (unless you wanted to make identical ones, of course).

As an example, compare the Affliction effect from M&M 3E to, say, the Flight effect. Flight is much simpler than Affliction; barring modifiers, any instance of rank X Flight will be the same as any other instance of rank X Flight. This is not true for Affliction, as each Affliction is defined at the time of its creation. One Affliction rank 10 can be enormously distinct from another equally ranked Affliction effect.

Some elements are like Flight in the above example, providing a simple and consistent effect. Stunts, on the other hand, are like Affliction. A stunt has so many Ranks worth of effects based on its own Rank (and, therefore, the Rank of the trait that contains it). So there aren't individual elements called Damage, Healing, Condition, etc. Instead, these are effects which you can select for a stunt. Primary types of stunts include:

Attack: Attack stunts can possess any number of effects, from damage to various afflictions. They typically require an attack roll against a defense chosen at the time of stunt creation. Modifiers such as Range, Accuracy, and Targets are especially relevant to attacks.
Support: Most non-attack stunts are included in this category, like stunts with beneficial effects or effects which alter the environment.
Create: A stunt which creates an object or environmental zone (i.e. mist, ice). You assign the effects of the stunt to determine the creation's properties: a creation of stone would certainly block sight and movement, whereas creating a mass of slime could have several different effects. The stunt's Rank affects the size of the creation, its Toughness, and the strength of its effects.
Summon: A summon stunt invokes a temporary companion. Rather than building a creature from scratch, summoning uses your own stats as a base. You modify this base and decide any special properties of the summoned creature using effects, much like defining a creation.

These are templates for types of abilities. In other words, the categories may overlap in the same stunt. You can have an attack that drains an enemy's life force and gives it to an ally, or create a luminous rain that heals wounds, or summon a creature that walks surrounded by obscuring mist. Each of the above stunt types takes up 1 slot.

The stunt creation rules are a major cog in the trait system as a whole. Combining effects allows you to create a plethora of customized elements. I should note that the trait creation process thus involves two steps, which adds a layer of complexity. The first step is to decide the elements for a trait. Then, if any of those elements would be stunts, the next step is to pick the effects for each of them. However, the elements and trait structure themselves are pretty simple and don't involve much numerically. Since everything is based off the trait Rank, selecting an element requires few decisions unless you are making a stunt. Stunts typically cover the active, dynamic characteristics that a character has, such as special attacks and tricks. Passive benefits or simpler mechanics are covered by the other elements (although, a passive stunt wouldn't necessarily be impossible).

Below are a few other types of elements:
Companion: You get a buddy (animal companion, sidekick, robot, what have you) that has a Character Rank equal to your trait Rank, and a level equal to yours, which decide their defenses, Toughness, attacks, and other modifiers. You also get a small number of points per Rank to give them special traits. A Companion acts on your turn in battle, but there's a drawback: you have to share your standard actions with the Companion. A Companion element takes up 4 slots.
Control: Allows a character to interact with and manipulate the environment, keyed to a specific substance or energy. You get Move Object-like manipulation, and sometimes other goodies depending on what you can Control. Fire Control lets you change the damage value or size category of a flame with a check, with each degree of success on the check letting you raise or lower either value by 1. I tried to keep this element very simple and skill-like, because a lot of their specifics is linked with descriptors. A Control element takes up 1 slot.
Enhance Trait: An Enhance Trait element increases the usefulness of some basic quality or action. You choose the quality to be enhanced, such as grab checks, melee reach, etc. Usually this means granting a bonus equal to the trait Rank, but can also confer a special option. Examples include replacing your initiative check with a skill check, letting you hold multiple opponents in a grab, or use a different Ability score for some kind of check. This is a fine way to generate new feats, too. Normally an Enahnced Trait is 1 slot. The exception is Enhanced Ability, which provides a bonus equal to Rank to any check related to one Ability score (but not attack rolls, defenses, or damage). This Enhancement is 2 slots.
Shield: A Shield element simply provides a non-stacking bonus (equal to Rank) to one defense: Dodge, Parry, Reflex, Fortitude, or Will. 1 slot for each defense Shield is taken up.
Strike: A Strike element improves the offensive power of all of the character's attacks. This may be limited to attacks of a single form (i.e. only psychic attacks, only sword attacks), or to any attack in a set cirumstance. Sneak Attack, then, is a Strike trait that is limited to attacks made when the opponent is vulnerable to you. A Strike element takes up 3 slots.
Weapon: A Weapon trait grants a character a unique weapon that is always available, whether it be a psychic dagger, a cybernetic arm, a whip made of lightning, or an iron fist. The damage value of the Weapon is equal to the trait's Rank, and it may have one or more weapon modifiers based on Rank. Weapon elements cause a trait to function like a combat skill. In fact, combat skills are modelled after the Weapon element. Weapon traits usually contain a weapon-based stunt. A Weapon element takes up 2 slots.

Modifiers
Modifiers have two broad forms: general modifiers and stunt modifiers. General modifiers deal in character points, like in M&M, that modify either an element or a whole trait, a couple points at a time.
Stunt modifiers, on the other hand, are internal. They work just like stunt effects. Since a stunt is a mini-container that has room for so many effects based on its Rank, positive modifiers just take up a certain amount of that room. Therefore, a ranged attack stunt has less space for effects than a similar close attack stunt. On the other hand, negative modifiers incur a drawback to provide more room for effects.
Stunt modifiers include Accuracy (modifies how easily an attack stunt works), Action (what type of action a stunt takes to use), Duration (how long a non-instant effect lasts), or Continual (turns an instant effect into an effect with a Duration, such as by repeating damage every round).
General modifiers are less finely-grained, like traits which are Removeable or Transferable. General modifiers are, in practice, simply elements that change how other elements work.

I'm cautious about letting character use the finesse of stunt modifiers to modify passive elements, since that could easily get out of hand. However, I haven't yet given that theory much testing.

So, without posting a bunch of rules text, here is what some finished powers would read like.

Fire Shaping: 1 point/Rank. Fire Control, Ignite (create fire), Fire Blast (attack stunt), Fireball (attack stunt)
Hundred Hand Strike: 1 point/Rank. Strike (melee attacks), Blizzard of Blows (attack stunt)
Beast Link: 1 point/Rank. Comprehend Animals, Animal Contact, Call Beast (summon stunt), Heal Animals (support stunt)

An adept with Fire Shaping might develop her power this way:
Fire Shaping 2 (2 points): Fire Control, Ignite, Fire Blast, Fireball

Wall of Fire (create stunt) - 1 point
Flame Armor (Resist Fire) - 2 points

Meanwhile, the sylvan archer with Beast Link could have:
Beast Link 3 (3 points): Comprehend Animals, Animal Contact, Call Beast, Heal Animals

Bear Companion - 4 points

I didn't explain each of the listed elements, nor the effects of all the stunts, but hopefully the underlying structure is clear.

Stunt creation is easily the most complex part of the rules, so at some point I should make another post about that if anyone is interested.

In the next post, I'll describe how traits interact with characters and some optional rules.

EDIT: I'm giving serious thought to changing the "4 points = 1 point/Rank" conversion rule. I've been working on simplifying the point system, and I feel that may just be an unnecessary complication that will confuse some players. In fact, it's not set in stone that a standard trait has to have 4 slots. Since trait and Character Rank are based on fives, I'm thinking maybe basing everything on multiples of five might work better.

[Periwinkle]

What I've been describing is fundamental; a core that works fine on its own. However, you can adjust or add bits to the system, style it up or down, to result in all kinds of things.

Characters acquire Ranks in traits in the same way, but I didn't say anything about which traits a character can pick. Restrictions to trait access are a very simple way to adjust the rules to suit the style you wish to create.

As I said, your maximum Rank in any trait is equal to your Character Rank. If you like, make this your Role Rank - the same way you have character levels and role levels in core True20. Adepts can have supernatural powers up to their Adept Rank, whereas Expert and Warrior traits - presumably including most combat skills - would be limited by the character's Expert Rank or Warrior Rank. You could even rule it that only Experts can have any skill past Rank 1.

Characters can split their Ranks up, resulting in hybrid combinations like Adept 3/Warrior 2, or Expert 4/Adept 1, and so on. If you want to have more varied characters, you can even give them more Character Ranks, which they can distribute as they wish without exceeding the max Rank for their level. Thus, you can get Warrior 4/Adept 4 (a competent warrior-mage or paladin) or even Expert 5/Warrior 2/Adept 1 (a tricky and skillful fighter with a bit of something magical).

Another way is to play with what contains the elements. Remember how I said a trait is the container which sets the parameters for each element in it? You could use other characteristics as containers.

Classic True20 Style
This example works more like classic True20 in the core rulebook.
Your Character Rank is the container for your traits, so instead of buying up the Rank of individual traits, you simply obtain your stunts and other elements one at a time, using your Character Rank as the master trait.

Powers in the core True20 rulebook are usually one effect at a time. Adepts could easily replicate this by paying 1 point to get, say, Fire Control at their Adept Rank. This works the same as acquiring the Fire Shaping power based on adept level for a single feat slot. Then they just pay more for any additional effects they want (1 more for an Elemental Blast, 3 for a Fire Aura, etc.).

Similarly, Experts would only have to pay 1 point to train a new skill, and 1 or more additional points for any stunts or extras they'd want. 1 point would give characters weapon proficiency, and Warriors could pay 1 point to get a damage bonus with a weapon equal to their Warrior Rank.

In effect, this turns Warrior, Expert, and Adept into distinct traits in themselves. You could even rule that one can acquire elements associated with another role if they pay to Rank it up. A Warrior can still get an Adept power, but they have to pay for it wholesale instead of adding it to their Warrior container.

To create more nuance, and something that integrates better with a Role creation system, imagine something like this:

Character Core Attributes
In addition to the six Ability scores, every character has five trait Attributes, each of which can have a rating from 0 to 5. Each Attribute sets the maximum Rank for a particular category of trait.

Fighting: Determines the effectiveness of combat skills and other martial arts-y effects.
Expertise: Determines the Rank of skills and skill-related effects (presumably, everyone can have at least Rank 1 skills).
Arcana: Determines the effectiveness of supernatural powers that have a magical or occult nature.
Technic: Determines the Rank of Devices and technology related abilities.
Spirit: Determines the effectiveness of natural and unique traits, such as mutant powers, psychic gifts, and racial abilities.

You can use each Attribute as a separate container, or just as a Rank cap. Of course, make as many changes or new Attributes as suit the campaign.

Characters have a progression which sets how quickly they gain Ranks in an Attribute.
Fast: Attribute is equal to Character Rank.
Moderate: Attribute is equal to Character Rank -1. (minimum 1)
Slow: Attribute is equal to one-half Character Rank, rounded down.
Very Slow: Attribute is no greater than 1.

It shouldn't be difficult to fix a value for each progression to be used with the Role Creation rules. Warriors would focus on Fighting, Experts on Expertise, and Adepts on Arcana or Spirit (maybe both). Martial Artists might mix Fighting and Spirit, Holy Warriors Fighting and Arcana, Specialists Expertise and Technic, and so on in this fashion.

Background Traits
Let each character select a background that acts like a power, with a Rank equal to Character Rank. This should have only one or two slots, so it is less than a 1 point/Rank trait. The background is a container for innate abilities; they can link elements to it that suit the theme of the background, even if they would be otherwise atypical.

A knightly Warrior with the Dragonkin background trait could choose powers like flame breath, wings, dragon hide, or other mystical gifts. A wily Expert may possess unearthly charms and secrets due to a Fey lineage.

These don't have to be racial traits. For instance, it might be a good way to make a cyborg or a wild talent.

Trait Consequences
The effect a power has on its user can do as much to define it as anything. Among the most notable differences between True20 and M&M is that powers in True20 usually have a limit (they are Fatiguing), whereas M&M powers aren't restricted unless you design them to be.

People here have already discussed this concept quite a bit, so I'm sure it doesn't require explanation. Such drawbacks are included as negative stunt modifiers, resulting in stronger stunts that have a risk or limit to them. You may require that all but a few stunts have a consequence.

Alternately, you could apply a consequence to activate a trait for a scene instead of each time it is used. Sounds like it'd be good for characters with combat trances (activating combat skills and suffering a consequence afterward) or transformation powers.

Since the greatest number of Rank you have to deal with at one time is 5, an effect like M&M's Fade should be easier to track in this system.

Well, guess I'll stop there for now. I'd be happy to go into more detail if someone's interested. Any thoughts or questions?

[barsoomcore]

I'm having trouble grasping some of the basics here. How is Character Rank determined? How many Character Points does a given character have?

A standard 1 point/Rank trait has 4 slots of room. It's also true that if a power contains elements worth 8 slots, this would cost 2 points/Rank. Most elements take up 1 slot, some take up more.

Linking additional elements to a trait costs 1 point for every slot the element takes up. Therefore, adding 4 slots to a standard power costs 4 points. This is where there's a difference in cost. As I just said, every 4 slots is 1 point/Rank, or 5 points for a fully Ranked power. Or it can be 4 points. Where's the extra point coming from?

I have no idea what any of this means. What is a "fully Ranked power"? What extra point? I'm very confused.

I like the unification of combat, skills and powers. I tentatively like the "chunkier" distribution of Ranks. And I like the ability to add scope to existing traits, rather than just keep making bigger numbers or adding more powers to my list.

But I'm really struggling to understand the implementation. Could you strip this down, not worry about so many "you could do it this way, or you could do it that way," and just offer a basic description of what's at the core of your ideas?

Sorry, but I'm pretty lost here. Interesting, though!

[The Shadow]

Sorry for the delay in responding, I got waylaid by the holidays. :)

And with my computer currently in the shop, it may be a bit yet. But soon!

[Periwinkle]

How is Character Rank determined? How many Character Points does a given character have?

This is the default, which may be adjusted as desired:

Level goes from 1 to 30; level sets Character Rank.
At level 1, Character Rank is 1.
At level 4, Character Rank rises to 2.
At level 10, Character Rank rises to 3.
At level 16, Character Rank rises to 4.
At level 22, Character Rank rises to 5.

Six levels are between each Rank-Up, except from Rank 1 to 2. It's front-loaded, so high level characters will gain more flexibility or scope rather than become more powerful outright.

Characters gain 2 character points each level. In addition, each Character Rank grants 3 bonus points. This means that each level that corresponds with a Rank (1, 4, 10, 16, 22), you get 5 points instead of 2.

To calculate quickly, use the formula: [2 x level] + [3 x Rank].

I'm having trouble grasping some of the basics here.

Here it is in a nutshell.

Characters acquire trait Ranks with points; one Rank means you are trained in the trait. Each additional Rank improves it somehow.

Any trait can have a Rank from 1 to 5. Your bonus when making a trait check is 1/2 level + 3 x Rank + Ability.

A standard trait is one that costs 1 character point per Rank. Thus, buying a standard power up to Rank 5 costs 5 points.

You cannot buy a higher Rank in any trait than your Character Rank.

Traits give a roughly equivalent amount of "stuff." The "stuff" a trait gives you are called its elements. Elements tell you what a power - or skill, or whatever - actually does.

Elements have one or more effects. As an example, Attack is an element. Damage is an effect that an Attack can have.

A standard trait can have up to four "slots" worth of elements. It could have four 1-point elements, two 2-point elements, one 3-point element element and a 1-point element, or so on.

To increase the number of elements a trait has, just pay the extra points (1 point per "slot").

What is a "fully Ranked power"? What extra point?

A fully Ranked power is a power at Rank 5 (because 5 is the highest Rank).

By "the extra point" I meant this:

To buy a standard power up to Rank 5, it costs 5 point (1 point/Rank). A standard power has 4 points worth of elements; if you broke down the elements individually, they'd cost 4 points total. However, to get them as part of a power as a whole at the highest Rank, it costs 5 points.

In other words, it's actually cheaper point-wise to just add elements to your existing traits than it is to buy Ranks in new traits. When you are on a high enough level to have Rank 5 traits, it's a difference of 1 point.

I'm not sure yet if this is a bug or a feature.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I got waylaid by the holidays.

And with my computer currently in the shop, it may be a bit yet. But soon!

No problem.

[barsoomcore]

Okay, this simplified stuff is much easier. Sorry, my brain is not large.



So the number of elements in a trait has no relationship with the Rank of that trait -- all traits of any Rank have a maximum of four points' worth of elements?

So as a first-level character I have five points. I could buy a single trait and pack it full of elements, or two traits and split three points' worth of elements across them, or three traits with two points' of elements split, four with one, or just buy five traits with no elements.

Can you break this down for me with a couple of examples? Would Combat be a trait, or would you go with Martial Weapons? Or Swords? Stuff like that.

Thanks for walking me through this so carefully. It's really cool stuff, I just want to make sure I understand.

[Periwinkle]

Sure thing.

So the number of elements in a trait has no relationship with the Rank of that trait -- all traits of any Rank have a maximum of four points' worth of elements?

So as a first-level character I have five points. I could buy a single trait and pack it full of elements, or two traits and split three points' worth of elements across them, or three traits with two points' of elements split, four with one, or just buy five traits with no elements.

Can you break this down for me with a couple of examples? Would Combat be a trait, or would you go with Martial Weapons? Or Swords? Stuff like that.

Yes, the number of elements in a trait is not determined by your Rank in it - instead, it has to do with the cost per Rank.

If it wasn't clear, a trait is "pre-loaded" with 4 points worth of elements - it doesn't start empty. if you buy one Rank in Fire Shaping, you get the elements of Fire Shaping as part of buying that Rank. As you pay to Rank it up, the elements just get better.

Paying points per element only occurs if you want to add to the power. So, with a level 1 character it'd go more like this:

I have five points at first level. Let's say I spend one point to get a Rank in Water Shaping. I get all the stuff that comes with being trained in Water Shaping automatically, and all that stuff is Rank 1 when it comes to figuring out how powerful it is. I'll describe Water Shaping in more detail below.

Now, I have four points left. If I want to, I can get four more Ranks in different traits (I can't yet raise a trait past Rank 1, because I'm not high enough level yet), or I can spend one or more of those points to get a feat (one point for a feat), or I can use those points to add some more elements to my Water Shaping. If you're familiar with Mutants and Masterminds, you can think of this as comparable to adding extras or making Alternate Effects.

As for Combat, combat skills exist as separate traits. So you might have a Rank in Unarmed Fighting but not Sword-fighting, for example.

I have to come back to this later, but I'll have some examples then.

[Periwinkle]

I have a few example traits here.

Dodge Focus * 1 point/Rank * Combat Skill (Dexterity)
* [Shield; 1 slot]: Add your Rank as a trait bonus to your Dodge score.
* [Block; 1 slot]: You can use a Dodge Focus check in place of a defense check when you use the Defend action.
* Tuck and Roll [Support stunt; 1 slot]: Gain a bonus to Dodge as an interruption to an enemy's attack. Bonus improves with Rank. Fatiguing.
* Moving Target [Feat, 1 slot]: You gain a +2 bonus to Dodge while it's your turn (that is, against reactive attacks).

You get all of the listed benefits just for having Ranks in Dodge Focus. Each element is listed by what kind of element it is (i.e. Shield, Block, etc.) and how many slots it takes up.

And as you can see, you also include a feat as a trait element. This is just like taking an Advantage as an Enhanced Trait in M&M - you adjust the explanation behind the feat's benefit and its relationship to the character.

As shown above, you can assign a special name to a particular element inside a trait if you want to.

Sorcery * 1 point/Rank * Supernatural Power (choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma)
* Magical Senses [Sense, 1 slot ]: You can detect the presence of magical beings or magical powers being used. Use a Sorcery check if it is higher than your Perception. At Rank 3, you can analyze magical auras and pinpoint their location. At Rank 5, you can locate a particular magical being or object from any distance with a power check modified by Familiarity.
* Spell Blast [Attack stunt, 1 slot]: Ranged attack, deals magical damage. Damage and range scales with Rank.
* Dispel Magic [Support stunt, 1 slot]: Ranged Negate effect, targets creations/illusions of supernatural type. Fatiguing.
* Choose one spell (any stunt that takes up 1 slot)

In this case, you can pick one of the things you get with the power. Any additional Sorcery spells you wish to have can be added by paying extra points.

Harvester, Vampiric Blade * 1 point/Rank * Supernatural Power (Constitution)
* [Weapon, 2 slots]: You have access to the mystic sword called the Harvester, which you can summon any time you could draw a weapon. It has a damage value equal to your power Rank; you gain a +3 bonus to attack rolls made with the sword. The sword has the Improved Critical property.
* Vampiric Bite [Attack stunt, 1 slot]: Attack which deals damage and heals the user. Damage and healing increase with Rank.
* Reap the Field [Improve Toughness, triggered, 1 slot]: When you succeed on a damage roll with the Harvester, add your degrees of success as a bonus to your Toughness until the end of your next turn. The bonus can be no higher than your power Rank.

This power only gives you three distinct goodies, because one of them takes up 2 slots instead of 1.

Now, a classic:

Water Shaping * 1 point/Rank * Supernatural Power (choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma)
* Control Water [Control, 1 slot]: You can control an area of water by making a power check vs. Difficulty of 10. The size of the area is determined by you Rank + degrees of success.
* Dowsing [Sense, 1 slot]: You can detect any source of moisture; use your Water Shaping check if it is higher than your Perception. At Rank 3, you can immediately tell if water is safe to drink and what substances it contains. At Rank 5, you can always pinpoint the direction of water-rich areas without effort.
* Tidal Blast [Attack stunt, 1 slot]: Area attack, inflicts Damage and a Pushing effect. Effects scale with Rank.
* Water Bubble [Support stunt, 1 slot]: Creates bubble of water around you that offers a temporary bonus to defenses. Bonus provided by the bubble and its duration increase with power Rank. Fatiguing.

[The Shadow]

Characters have a universal progression for attacks, defenses, etc. The core formula is 1/2 the character's level + the Key Ability of the relevant characteristic, as well as a small number of other modifiers (such as Role Bonuses, etc.). Defenses are passive, like Dodge/Parry in True20 core or like Defense Classes in M&M 3E. You make an attack roll against the relevant defense, and the amount by which you roll over- or undershoots the target defense determines your degrees of success or failure (also like M&M 3E). You don't typically have to make multiple rolls for an attack to work: for instance, you don't have to try to hit a target's Dodge to be able to then make an attack against Will. You simply roll against Will and see if it hits (and by how much).

Good grief! Clearly I need to invest in a tin-foil hat! Because this looks really familiar. :)

Now, to how powers work. All characters use a universal trait system, with three primary types of traits: combat skills, (regular) skills, and powers. Traits are acquired in Ranks. A Rank, in my system, is rather different than how the term is used in core True20. Ranks range from 1 to 5, with Rank 0 indicating being completely untrained. A character's max Rank in any given trait has a hard cap depending on the character's level (for instance, a level 5 character can only have up to a Rank 2 trait). This cap is referred to as the Character Rank.

No, make that really familiar. :)

A trait acts as a container, linking together a number of effects. The different effects that are part of a trait are called elements. You can add elements to this container or even modify elements that are already part of it. This, essentially, is how stunts now work. All the elements put together inside the container use the container's Rank to determine their effectiveness.

Hmmm. Though your Ranks are going in a somewhat different direction than I was going.

Checks: For any trait, you gain a +3 bonus to checks with it for every rank. Thus, a Rank 1 skill has a check modifier of 1/2 level + 3 + Ability, whereas a Rank 5 has one of 1/2 level + 15 + Ability.

Okay... I had a somewhat different version, but this could certainly work.

Combat Skills: Training in a combat skill grants proficiency with some class of armament or improves a combat maneuver. 1 Rank in a weapon skill grants a flat bonus to attack rolls with that weapon. The base damage modifier of an attack is either the weapon's damage value or your Rank in the relevant skill, whichever is highest. So, if a sword has a base damage value of +3, a swordfighter with Rank 5 in Swordfighting will deal +5 damage instead of +3. 2 or more Ranks also grants the character an additional stunt with the armament or maneuver, such as some kind of special attack.

Hmmm. On one level I kind of like the "whichever is highest" part, because it makes intuitive sense. But on another level I wonder if it makes *mechanical* sense. It seems like it could bias weapon choice in some weird ways. I like the extra-stunt idea, though.

Skills: Much of the use of skills remains tied to the character's skill check modifier, which scales with Rank. As expected, trained only uses of skills aren't useable unless a character has at least 1 skill Rank. 2 or more Ranks with a Skill grants a character a free skill stunt, much like with combat skills.
Powers: Training in a power grants the benefit of all of that power's elements to the character. In addition, any damaging attack via the power has a base damage value equal to the power Rank.

Before I can really comment on this, I'd like to see some existing powers broken down into elements, and some examples of what different kinds of stunts can do.

Feats: As I mentioned above, a feat costs 1 point. Feats, by and large, aren't ranked, and they are general access. Anything that should be restricted to particular concepts or should be Ranked are instead some other type of trait.

Hmmm. So no more role feat lists, then? In fact, there is no vestige of roles left in your system? I could maybe get behind that, my SAGA-fied Role Creation system sort of did the same thing.

[The Shadow]

Like barsoomcore, I was getting pretty lost in the thickets of terminology. :) So I'm glad for a clarifying post.

Level goes from 1 to 30; level sets Character Rank.
At level 1, Character Rank is 1.
At level 4, Character Rank rises to 2.
At level 10, Character Rank rises to 3.
At level 16, Character Rank rises to 4.
At level 22, Character Rank rises to 5.

To calculate quickly, use the formula: [2 x level] + [3 x Rank].

This really strikes me as much more complicated than it needs to be.

I also think it's confusing to have both "character rank" and "trait rank". Just because nobody at TSR cracked open a thesaurus doesn't mean we can't. :)

In other words, it's actually cheaper point-wise to just add elements to your existing traits than it is to buy Ranks in new traits. When you are on a high enough level to have Rank 5 traits, it's a difference of 1 point.

I'm not sure yet if this is a bug or a feature.

If I have understood you thus far, I definitely think it's a feature.

[The Shadow]

I have a few example traits here.

OK. Since I'm pretty familiar with M&M, I feel like this is making a lot more sense now.

The one thing that troubles me is that it seems there's a good bit of arbitrariness in the descriptions of elements. While that can have its benefits in terms of fine-tuning, it also seems to me to detract from some of the main benefits of having a point-based system like this in the first place.

Also, I tend to dislike level-based abilities in True20, especially hard-coded ones. Saying "You can't do that because you aren't X level yet" is not very True-ditional, as I see it. I admit it's done a few times even in the core rules, but I do my best to remove those cases wherever possible, as they don't seem to jive with the rest of the game.

[barsoomcore]

"True-ditional"

[barsoomcore]

Thanks for the review, Periwinkle, I feel like I have a better grasp on your system now, and I quite like it. I like having combat, skills and powers all just being different instances of the same basic idea --the arbitrary differences in d20 have never really worked for me.

But like The Shadow, I expect the definitions of elements to really be where this works or fails.

Clearly not all feats will translate to elements here -- or at least I don't see how Martial Weapons Training could be an element, given your description of how combat skills work.

Given your new description of traits, it seems as though a trait can have a maximum of EIGHT points' worth of elements, is that right? So I buy a trait, it comes with four points' worth of elements, and then I can spend a point here and there to add more elements to it, up to a total of eight. Is that right? Or is there no limit to how many elements I can add to a trait?

[Periwinkle]

It may take be a bit to address everything that you and The Shadow brought up, so don't worry if I didn't answer something in this post.

Firstly, lemme just remind that this iteration is not "finished," and there is a lot I'm trying to find better ways of doing, or would just like some input on. So thank you for the constructive criticism and questions. For example, there are a few tidbits that I'm still debating: i.e. if 4 is the right number of element slots for a standard trait to have, etc.

Given your new description of traits, it seems as though a trait can have a maximum of EIGHT points' worth of elements, is that right? So I buy a trait, it comes with four points' worth of elements, and then I can spend a point here and there to add more elements to it, up to a total of eight. Is that right? Or is there no limit to how many elements I can add to a trait?

There is no limit on how many elements you can add to a trait. You can have a power contain as many goodies as you have points to spend on it.

In short: for 1 point per Rank, you get trait elements that take up 4 slots (the same as saying 4 points worth of elements). Past that, you can add anything you want to the trait by spending additional points - 1 point per slot taken up by the element to you want to add.

On the list of elements, each one notes "X slot(s)." That's how many it takes up out of the base four, and it is also how many points it costs to add to an existing trait. Thinking of each extra point you spend on a trait as adding a slot.

Clearly not all feats will translate to elements here -- or at least I don't see how Martial Weapons Training could be an element, given your description of how combat skills work.

I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. Are you referring to the feat that nets you proficiency with all martial weapons, instead of only a few?

In that case, my system just has a change in how you get proficiencies. You could still, in theory, have a feat that makes you proficient with almost all weapons while giving you no other benefits.

With any feat, you can include it as part of a trait if you want. Again, I bring up the example of buying an Advantage as an Enhanced Trait in M&M 3E instead of as a "plain" or "straight" advantage. It is exactly the same. Remember, a feat also has a point value - 1 point, to be exact. This means it's the equivalent of a 1 point (1 slot) element.

Hmmm. So no more role feat lists, then? In fact, there is no vestige of roles left in your system? I could maybe get behind that, my SAGA-fied Role Creation system sort of did the same thing.

Hm? No reason for this to be the case. As I said, you can still have role-specific traits (skill/combat skill/power) lists.

In fact, in my present game there aren't role-exclusive skills or powers. Roles still exist, however. The details are better suited for a different thread, but as you can see, in this system, the very basics of what a role is (in other words, role components) are quite different. Steve Kenson pointed out that a role is a package of characteristics and traits. There are still packages; they just deal with different game characteristics.

In most classic fantasy-style games, I'd recommend using role-exclusive lists in some form. For a supers game or other high-cinematics game, I suggest using skill and power lists associated with a role (to ease character creation) rather than strictly exclusive to it. Season to taste.

If I have understood you thus far, I definitely think it's a feature.

Thank you. That helps.

I would like to discuss your other feedback, which I think will be more involved. So I will post more tomorrow.

Thank you again for the comments!