True20 Companion: New Roles

[Sean-Khan]

Hmmm...so you'd let the players build their own classes? Funny, that never even occured to me. I was thinking of building roles that fit whatever particular campaign I want to run (whether adding to the three or replacing some), and letting them choose from that pool.

Actually, only talking with players about what kind of character they want to play, and then making class for such, if I think normal classes won't work for that. This way players can get class exactly suitable for his planned character and I still have final word.

Generally, I'm thinking of making classes on need -basis. If I think that character concept can't be done with base classes, I'll do one. But if this really is on my total control, I might be able to do them balanced enough...

And yes, True20chick, that's what I mean! And while there's no skill ranks, why should INT be any higher than giving capability to say 'FOOD!'? I could think of something more munchkin, but don't have time now - how about giving half combat only for melee(or ranged) & buying extra stats/powers with the rest? Split combat seems maybe most broken in the mechanic.

[True20Chick]

Well, it's been stated before and even in the book itself that the Companion is for Narrators, not players. Although players will certainly own the book, I think any Narrator worth his or her dice will know well enough to exercise caution when letting players design their own roles. The "Combat God" role I made up is a joke. I'd certainly never allow it, and if a player brought it to me for consideration I'd have a hard time not laughing in his face.

It's a tradeoff. Any point-buy mechanic enhances flexibility, but here's the disadvantage of people who "work the system" to make technically legal characters that are just ridiculous.

Narrators must defer to common sense when tinkering "under the hood" as Steve puts it in the introduction.

As you said, it's easy to shave a point or two here and there to get powers, but in my opinion there has to be a reason for the role to exist. Custom roles should have a specific purpose to fulfill in the campaign setting rather than just being vehicles for players to play "pimp my hero." If a Narrator isn't careful, customr roles could become the "prestige class" of his or her True20 campaign... overblown, overused, and overpowered.

But I understand the urge to want to play with a new toy. I must admit I've been tinkering myself. I really like the custom roles idea, and I'm glad Steve brought it in. Love it!

[Sean-Khan]

The saddest thing is that it's exactly what I'd expect to get from some players, if they would have possibility to create their own classes.

[reliquedumadde]

Hello... all... for my first post ever.. I decided to toss in a character class of my own!


Defender of the Realm
In preparation for war, many kingdoms seak out the strongest and train them in hopes that they will protect the kingdom from all who seek to spread the ways of evil and villiany. These highly sought individuals are known as the Defenders of the Realm.
During their youth, a would be Defender of The Realm is selected to receive exclusive training from a kingdom's best warriors. As a result, Defenders of the Realm are able to push their bodies and their senses beyond the limits of most mortals.
Combat: Fast melee (2 pts), slow range (1 pt)
Skills: 5 + Int. (1.25 pts)
Feats: Warrior feats with access to Inspire (Awe, Courage, Fear, Rage) feat from the expert list. (0 pts)
Saves: All medium. (.25 pts)
Core Ability: Higher Purpose
Powers: Medium, Narrow. (.5 pt)

Powers list:
Body Control, Combat Sense, Enhance Ability, Enhanse Senses, Psychic Shield, Supernatural Strike, Supernatural Speed, Supernatural Weapon, Visions

[True20Chick]

You're .25 short. I don't have access to my Companion PDF at the moment, but I think for that quarter point you can give him 5 + Int skills, using the rules for finer skill progression. That brings the role up to the standard 5 points.

[reliquedumadde]

Thanks. I didn't notice that. The defender should add up now.

[iwatt]

Well, it's been stated before and even in the book itself that the Companion is for Narrators, not players. Although players will certainly own the book, I think any Narrator worth his or her dice will know well enough to exercise caution when letting players design their own roles. The "Combat God" role I made up is a joke. I'd certainly never allow it, and if a player brought it to me for consideration I'd have a hard time not laughing in his face.

Well, I could certainly see your Combat God role as a Narrator tool:

Villain Roles (similar to Iron heroes Villain Classes) When you need a melle brute in hurry...

Now, the jedi and D&D cleric have always been hard concepts to make in True20. Not because the Warrior/Adept mix isn't powerful enough IMO, but more likely because getting the right mix when multicalssing is hard to do. If you don't believe me, ask VGH and Prescient about the time they took to satisfactorly tweak their higher level jedis. I've had the same trouble converting clerics from D&D (2e and 3e) to warrior/Adepts in the first place.

Split combat seems maybe most broken in the mechanic.

Actually, it is the one easiest to break. Doesn't make it necessarily broken IMO. As in everything, it is broken when used in conjuction with the others , particularly the milking of skills per level, as so aptly illustrated by True20Chick.

Now, for an extremely broken Role

Master Blaster
Combat Progression: Ranged Fast (2 points), Melee Very Slow (0.5
points), using the option for Split Combat Progressions.
Skill Progression: 2+Int (0.5 point)
Save Progression: Good Will (0 point)
Power Progression: Fast, Narrow (1 point)
Feat Access: Adept, plus Attack specialization (elemntal Blast)
Feat Progression: 2 per level (1 point)
Core Ability: Talent

Powers: Elemental blasts and shapings, plus Widen and Empower and Quicken

So he loads up early on all the powers he needs, and loads up on Power Talent and Power Focus as well. and he get's to use elemental blast with the best combat progression. He loads up on int for better skills,.

[Kuni]

Talent is nice, but to really break the Master Blaster, try a Core Ability of Amazing Save(Will).

[reliquedumadde]

The only problem is that you since you still accumulate the fatique dc modifier you will eventually reach a point where you will be fatiqued if both dice rolls low.

Now, if you truly want to break the Master Blaster then give the character a core ability that erases fatigue and resets the accumulated fatigue dc modifier to 0. That way once you becomed fatique all you have to do is use the core ability to become refreshed during the next round.

[Sean-Khan]

If the alternative rule of tying conviction to charisma is in use, putting everything to charisma & using it as prime ability for powers would be the key. With Lucky, it would give marvellous fatigue saves, and you would start with 6 conviction. Extra conviction would be gained by feats. And, conviction can be used to erase fatigue accumulation IIRC. Quite powerful combo - that's why I dislike cha/conviction rule as it is.

So, here we are trying to make the ultimate uber-class of munchkinism

Hm, thinking of optimized abilities, I'll have to check through what's said about them; I think I read somewhere that an ability can't be more than 5, and something from another place.

----
Now, something of my own; My versions of 3 Jedi classes (Sentinel's from KOTOR). Basically, they are Jedi versions of the three base classes.


Jedi Guardian:
Medium attack (3)
Good save: will
4 skill points/level(1)
Power progression: slow/board (0,5)
feat access warrior, adept(0,5)
Core ability: Determination

Sorry iwatt, I just don't like idea of split combat, or Jedi being so abysmal with ranged attacks even if they prefer lightsabers. IMHO enhance ability & combat sense make for the lost combat bonus, so medium is fine for me. I would hope for more feats, but I wouldn't like to drop skills for that.


Jedi Sentinel:
Slow attack (2)
Good save: will
6 skill points/level(1,5)
Power progression: medium/board (1)
feat access expert, adept(0,5)
Core ability: Adept?

Expert of the Jedi. I'm just not sure what to use for core ability; Adept's ability? IIRC amazing save would reflect KOTOR's sentinel.


Jedi Councillor:
Slow attack (2)
Good save: will
4 skill points/level(1)
Power progression: fast/board (1,5)
feat access: adept
extra feat every other level (0,5)
Core ability: adept?

Jedi that's especially good with force powers.


Finally, one more class quite essential to Star Wars

Bounty Hunter:
Medium attack (3)
Good save: ref
6 skill points/level(1,5)
feat access expert, warrior(0,5)
Core ability: This one's difficult. Higher purpose? This could be named differently, but essentially it could work - it can be activated when dealing with target you know there's bounty for. On the other hand, favoured enemy, dedicated & even smite (if thought as motivational boost) could work, so I don't know if this would be too much.

Any comments/changes you would make? Should 1 skill point from Bounty Hunter be transferred to bonus feats?


And, what about Jedi abilities to use force? Free to choose or one ability for each? Sentinels are skill specialists, so Int would be for them. Councilors as negotiators should probably get charisma, which would leave wisdom for guardians.

[The Shadow]

Jedi Guardian

Combat Progression: LMelee Fast (2 points), Any Other Very Slow (0.5 point), using the options for split progression.
Skill Progression: 4 + Int (1 point)
Save Progression: Good Will, Normal Fortitude and Reflex (0 points)
Power Progression: Medium (Broad)
Feat Access: General, Adept, Warrior (0.5 pts)
Core Ability: The Talent

Comments?

Beat me to it. :) I'm not at all sure that Jedi really have Broad access, though. Remember, Broad means they have access to half the powers *available in the campaign*. Jedi pretty much have access to everything available in the campaign, except for a few exceptions for Force Adept tricks. IMO, they should be Unlimited.

I'm not sure that your typical Jedi Guardian has access to Adept feats, either. Do we maybe need separate Guardian, Sentinel, and Consular roles? Or do we just have Jedi who multirole into Expert and Adept?

And while I used the same split combat progression as you (only to Slow instead of Very Slow), I worry that it'll hamper them too much in space combat. Also blaster deflection. Thoughts on this?

I'll follow up with a few new roles of my own.

EDIT: Sean-Khan, I just noticed your version of the Jedi. Your ideas are similar to my own, though again, I don't think Jedi powers are Broad.

And yes, split-combat progressions are tricksy. I discuss it somewhat over here.

[The Shadow]

One thing I noticed right away about the new power access rules is that they give a mechanism for flawing a role's powers in their entirety. You don't have to restrict a role's power *list*, you can restrict them in other ways!

I'm working on a system for "flawing" a role's powers in a quantifiable way. For now, I present two roles I came up with right after reading the Companion, in which I "eyeballed" the final outcome. They are variants of D&D's Arcane Archer and Bard. (Note that I've made no attempt to translate them exactly; I took the basic concepts and put my own spin on them. I don't see why bards should be able to Cure damage, to name just one thing.)

----------------

Supernatural Archer

Combat Progression: Fast Ranged, Slow Melee (3 points)

Skill Progression: 4+Int (1 point)

Save Progression: Medium Fort and Will, Normal Reflex. (0 points)

Power Progression: Medium, Broad, Arrow-dependent. (0.5 points) Arrow-dependent means that powers that affect other people or things can only be delivered via an arrow. This takes the normal action for the power to imbue it in the arrow, then another standard action to fire the arrow. If the arrow misses, the power has no effect; if it hits, the subject suffers the normal damage from the arrow as well as the effect of the power. Widened powers do not have to hit the subject, just come to rest within range of the area of effect. Creatures and things hit by an imbued arrow are treated as having "Present Familiarity".

The power list for the Supernatural Archer consists of those powers that harm or mentally influence other people, plus Second Sight, and arrows-only versions of Elemental Weapon, Ghost Touch, and Supernatural Weapon. Powers that affect things are allowed if they are not beneficial and could reasonably be delivered by an arrow. The stat used for Supernatural Archer powers will depend on the campaign.

(A variant Supernatural Archer might have the option of firing "merciful" arrows that don't do damage. This would open up beneficial powers like Cure. I'd remove Broad in that case and perhaps lower their skill progression.)

Feat Access: Adept and Warrior (0.5 points)

Core Ability: Seeking Arrow. By spending a point of Conviction, you may fire an arrow (with or without a power imbued) at any subject, no matter how distant or concealed, with a Familiarity penalty to your attack roll. Any power imbued in the arrow takes no Familiarity penalty, as usual.

---------------

Bard

Combat Progression: Medium (3 points)

Skill Progression: 4+Int (1 point)

Save Progression: Medium Reflex and Will, Normal Fort. (0 points)

Power Progression: Fast, Narrow, Music-Based. (0.5 points) Music-Based means the bard must sing or play an instrument to use powers (other than passive ones like Second Sight), and that no power rank can exceed the Perform skill he is using for the power. In general, a bard cannot maintain more than one power at a time; he has to sing or play the whole time he is maintaining a power. (Mind Touch and mental contact powers are an exception - those tunes go together. :) Also, he can use the same power he's maintaining on new people.) He can sing to maintain a power while fighting without trouble, but of course that makes any other sort of communication difficult.

The Bard's power list is: Calm, Cloud Minds, Dominate, Enhance Other, Heart Shaping, Illusion, Mind Shaping, Mind Touch, Psychic Shield, Second Sight, Sleep, Suggestion, and True Vision. (True20Chick's Sound Shaping power would also be appropriate.) Bard powers are Cha-based. Note that singing or playing to activate a power while using Cloud Minds counts as drawing attention to oneself.

Feat Access: Adept and Expert (0.5 points)

Core Ability: Bardic Lore (Ultimate Trait: Knowledge). Ultimate Trait: Perform would also be appropriate. Given that the latter is not terribly useful, I might even toss it in for free.

Alternatively, one could get rid of the Adept feat access in exchange for 6 skill points per level. However, bards are definitely going to want Widen Power to simulate affecting a whole crowd with their music, and other Adept feats are tempting also.

Another possibility would be to lower Attack to Slow for the skill points, which this role really does cry out for. Though they can always multirole with Expert, I suppose.

[iwatt]

[
Beat me to it. I'm not at all sure that Jedi really have Broad access, though. Remember, Broad means they have access to half the powers *available in the campaign*. Jedi pretty much have access to everything available in the campaign, except for a few exceptions for Force Adept tricks. IMO, they should be Unlimited.

Oh agreed. My first try was aimed mostly into creating an uber-role, for those people who feel jedi should be over the top.

- I'd probably slow down their power progression.
- Broad access was cheesy, I know
- I stand by split combat decision (although Fast/Very Slow is cheesy). I saw your observations in the other thread, but I had to score points from somewere.

IMO, jedi should use their good combat when unarmed or with a lightsaber, for both attack and defense.

I'm not sure that your typical Jedi Guardian has access to Adept feats, either. Do we maybe need separate Guardian, Sentinel, and Consular roles?

Jedi should have access to Adept feats, specifically Supernatural talent, Supernatural Focus, Quicken, and Mind over body. That's without considering more feats from other campaign settings.

Now, as a martial order, jedi should also have access to warrior feats. IMO of course.

And the expert list has many cool feats as well, and not all jedi are apparently lightsaber killing machines (don't bring up the Prequels :p).

So you can see my quandary: Either makes more than one jedi role, or make one single jedi role which is diluted by having to cover more than one archetype. I'm aprtial to the second (I don't want role-bloat), but it'll mean even more power milking.

Combat Progression: LS or Unarmed Fast (2 points), Any Other Very Slow (0.5 point), using the options for split progression.
Skill Progression: 4 + Int (1 point)
Save Progression: Good Will, Normal Fortitude and Reflex (0 points)
Power Progression: Medium (1.5 pts)
Feat Access: General, Adept (0 pt)
Core Ability: The Talent

A jedi Weapon master is somebody who at least took 3 warrior levels to increase his lightsaber skill (the attack focus/specialization chain).

This still keeps them with very low piloting skill, but that can be covered by Vehicular combat (based on pilot and not Combat) and by enhance ability and Combat Sense.

[Ghola]

Jedi should have access to Adept feats, specifically Supernatural talent, Supernatural Focus, Quicken, and Mind over body. That's without considering more feats from other campaign settings.

Now, as a martial order, jedi should also have access to warrior feats. IMO of course.

And the expert list has many cool feats as well, and not all jedi are apparently lightsaber killing machines (don't bring up the Prequels :p).

So you can see my quandary: Either makes more than one jedi role, or make one single jedi role which is diluted by having to cover more than one archetype. I'm aprtial to the second (I don't want role-bloat), but it'll mean even more power milking.

Combat Progression: LS or Unarmed Fast (2 points), Any Other Very Slow (0.5 point), using the options for split progression.
Skill Progression: 4 + Int (1 point)
Save Progression: Good Will, Normal Fortitude and Reflex (0 points)
Power Progression: Medium (1.5 pts)
Feat Access: General, Adept (0 pt)
Core Ability: The Talent

A jedi Weapon master is somebody who at least took 3 warrior levels to increase his lightsaber skill (the attack focus/specialization chain).

This still keeps them with very low piloting skill, but that can be covered by Vehicular combat (based on pilot and not Combat) and by enhance ability and Combat Sense.

I think your approach covers all of the necessities nicely.

[Ghola]

I never thought of using that restriction idea in other ways Shadow. Interesting.

Core Ability: Seeking Arrow. By spending a point of Conviction, you may fire an arrow (with or without a power imbued) at any subject, no matter how distant or concealed, with a Familiarity penalty to your attack roll. Any power imbued in the arrow takes no Familiarity penalty, as usual.

From the way that is worded it looks like I could shoot an arrow at somebody on the other side of the world via crystal ball. Am I reading it wrong?

Bard

Combat Progression: Medium (3 points)

Skill Progression: 4+Int (1 point)

Save Progression: Medium Reflex and Will, Normal Fort. (0 points)

Power Progression: Fast, Narrow, Music-Based. (0.5 points) Music-Based means the bard must sing or play an instrument to use powers (other than passive ones like Second Sight), and that no power rank can exceed the Perform skill he is using for the power. In general, a bard cannot maintain more than one power at a time; he has to sing or play the whole time he is maintaining a power. (Mind Touch and mental contact powers are an exception - those tunes go together. Also, he can use the same power he's maintaining on new people.) He can sing to maintain a power while fighting without trouble, but of course that makes any other sort of communication difficult.

The Bard's power list is: Calm, Cloud Minds, Dominate, Enhance Other, Heart Shaping, Illusion, Mind Shaping, Mind Touch, Psychic Shield, Second Sight, Sleep, Suggestion, and True Vision. (True20Chick's Sound Shaping power would also be appropriate.) Bard powers are Cha-based. Note that singing or playing to activate a power while using Cloud Minds counts as drawing attention to oneself.

Feat Access: Adept and Expert (0.5 points)

Core Ability: Bardic Lore (Ultimate Trait: Knowledge). Ultimate Trait: Perform would also be appropriate. Given that the latter is not terribly useful, I might even toss it in for free.

Alternatively, one could get rid of the Adept feat access in exchange for 6 skill points per level. However, bards are definitely going to want Widen Power to simulate affecting a whole crowd with their music, and other Adept feats are tempting also.

Another possibility would be to lower Attack to Slow for the skill points, which this role really does cry out for. Though they can always multirole with Expert, I suppose.

Nicely done.