Pathfinder/True20 rules kludge? ...a hyopothetical

[bryan.mullins]

I built a 1st level wizard for a Pathfinder one shot the other day, and immediately rankled at the spells cast per day limitation. I hardly ever played with adapt-types until I got to True20 because bookkeeping is not one of my strongest gamer skills, nor is it really that fun trying to plan out which three first level spells a wizard 'might' need that day.

I would like to hear what you all think about some kind of simple mechanic that would reasonably emulate the fatigue check system for True20 powers.

Do you think it possible? How easy would it be to use? Would it be statistically balanced?

I ask this question here because I respect the opinions here. Asking there would only get people on my case...

Thanks in advance,
>WBM

[iwatt]

I built a 1st level wizard for a Pathfinder one shot the other day, and immediately rankled at the spells cast per day limitation. I hardly ever played with adapt-types until I got to True20 because bookkeeping is not one of my strongest gamer skills, nor is it really that fun trying to plan out which three first level spells a wizard 'might' need that day.

I would like to hear what you all think about some kind of simple mechanic that would reasonably emulate the fatigue check system for True20 powers.

Do you think it possible? How easy would it be to use? Would it be statistically balanced?

I ask this question here because I respect the opinions here. Asking there would only get people on my case...

Thanks in advance,
>WBM

You can look at the SAGA mechanics for force powers.

[ValhallaGH]

You could simply import the Fatigue Save system, using a DC of 10 + spell level, and using the same fatigue track as True 20.

I think it would work out well, though my Pathfinder-fu is weak so I may be mistaken.

[bryan.mullins]

You could simply import the Fatigue Save system, using a DC of 10 + spell level, and using the same fatigue track as True 20.

I think it would work out well, though my Pathfinder-fu is weak so I may be mistaken.

I was wondering if it were that simple, or if I was missing a subtlety...

>WBM

[iczer]

for the non spontaneous caster (wizard) you should still be selecting spells per day in your proposal. The wizard, as opposed to the sorcerer, reaches high level spells sooner and has a wide repetoire, which he can expand with money and luck. In return, he has to be saddled with the decision of choosing ahead of time what he's going to cast.

In a fatigue/save system, you should have the same problem so as to not suddenly acquire the powers of the sorcerer.

In short, you would select which spells to cast in a given day. each spell would have a Dc as mentioned above (kudos VallhalaGH) and could be cast over and over until sucumbing to fatigue.

Alternatively, instead of fatigueing the character, the spell itself could become fatigued. Once a fatigue save is failed, the spell becomes unavailable for the rest of the day.

Batts

[ValhallaGH]

Alternatively, instead of fatigueing the character, the spell itself could become fatigued. Once a fatigue save is failed, the spell becomes unavailable for the rest of the day.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you get a Vancian feel using True 20 powers.


Well done iczer, well done. :clap:

[bryan.mullins]

See, I knew this would be the place to ask such a question. I thought the Pathfinders might only blink and ask "why?"

I can see that spell selection would have to remain part of the deal, if anything, just to maintain the split between sorcerers and wizards. Can any of you suggest save difficulties that would be appropriate? I like the threat of physical fatigue, but the Pathfinder system doesn't have conviction...let me see what the rules are surrounding fatigue...it might be easier to say that the spell becomes fatigued instead...

What would the save be based on? Spellcraft?

Thanks for the good discussion so far.

>WBM

[ValhallaGH]

Again, for Difficulty I would recommend going with 10 + Spell level, and using the character's will save bonus to resist spell fatigue.

The effects of spell fatigue are up to you; they may just be regular fatigue (the penalties don't look too bad until you realize how they can totally gimp a caster's movements and attacks) or it may shut down spell usage (iczer's suggestion) if you want to keep that Vancian feel. Or it can have one of several other effects, any of which could radically alter the game. It all depends upon what you want being "out of mystical energy" to mean to casters in the game. Heck, it can even be different for different types of spell casters.

Good luck.

[iwatt]

Again, for Difficulty I would recommend going with 10 + Spell level, and using the character's will save bonus to resist spell fatigue.

I wouldn't use Will save, but instead a specific power check that can't be raised by Owl's wisdom, periapts or wishes, cause they'll quickly throw everything out of whack, numbers wise. D&D is very easy to break.

[iczer]

I toyed with something with my Land of 5 winds game.

adepts (well one type of adept but i digress) could cast ad infinitum. BUT, a failed will save after any 'fatiguing' spell meant that he gained backlash, deliterious effects that penalised him with a severity dependant on the degree of failure. Small fires, magical leperousy, light sensitivity, any ne of the other 'conditions' and even temporary mutations. (One Flux adept turned all his posessions white (including a pair of scrolls) and seconds later gave himself the nauseated condition)

Other 'spell handlers'

* Change the penalty for a failed fatigue save. it could cause real damage, or inflict a different condition (sickened? nauseated?) or even ability damage. or perhaps it inflicts taint instead.

* Power loading. Powers are kept 'offscreen' and are loaded into memory, one at a time by the adept. He loads it taking a full round action per 'level' of the spell effect. He casts as normal, but makes a fatigue save after each power use. a failure causes it to become 'unloaded' and thus may require some time to releoad later in the day (and makes it useless in combat, especially if there is a 6 round wait) the fatigue save can be penalised by -1 for each power 'loaded' this penalises people with large repetoires, and rewards one trick ponies. alternatively you can add conditions required to 'reload' a power (must read a spellbook, must burn and inhale incense, must perform a ritual for each power etc).

* make the local environment bear the brunt of the will save. a failed save defoliates, desecrates or otherwise dfiles an area equal to 10 feet radius per level of the adept.

* In a similiar vein, the local environment may aid or hind the fatigue save, and may have a 'power capacity'. a lush forest may be able to support 10 levels of powers before supplying no more energy, while a desert may conk out after 2. (based on, say a quarter mile by quarter mile square of area for example) this way spellcasters have to remain mobile (perhaps some sort of sanctum could be set up to facilitate or accommodate extra power use)

Batts

[redwullf]

Old thread, I know, but I have very recently had some similar thoughts about the issue of the "15 minute work day" experienced by non-4E D&D settings. Invariably, the entire party must "rest" after only a few encounters, usually because the spell casters become worthless.

The advice given here has been pretty solid, but I'd like to offer a "fair" solution that will equally benefit (or impact) all spell casters. True20 proposes a Will save to avoid fatigue. Sadly, this only favors Clerics & Druids (and their like), as Will is modified by Wisdom. High Intelligence Arcane casters, or high Charisma arcane/divine casters will be at a disadvantage under this system, since they will not have the relevant ability score modifier to succeed as often as WIS-based casters.

I propose a new version of the "caster check" which is equal to 1/2 the caster's level + the relevant ability score modifier against a DC of 10 + Spell Level (like the True20 save vs. the power). Typically, the caster will have their key ability somewhere from +3 to +6 during their career, with most starting casters tending to have +4 in this ability. This ensures that all casters, regardless of key ability, have roughly the same degree of success and failure when making their checks.

Running some experimental numbers reveals that casters will average 10 to 20% chance of failure under this system, when casting their highest level spells. Lower level spells dramatically reduce this chance of failure until they become null - which is to say the caster can repeat the spell indefinitely without consequence.

In order to throw a reality-wrench into the system, there are a couple of options. You could rule that a 1 is always a failure, and a 20 always a success. Then, even the most powerful casters will face at least a 5% chance of losing, say, a 1st level spell (or becoming fatigued, depending on which of these systems you'd like to use). Alternatively, you could implement True20's increasing DC, where each use of a power increases the DC by 1. In a protracted encounter, spells will eventually become lost, or the caster will become too fatigued to continue. In the latter option, it might be wise to simply use Pathfinder's "Concentration Check" as your base check, using the full level of the caster + the relevant ability, rather than 1/2 the caster's level. This means the caster starts out very strong, but their ability to ward off fatigue, or prevent spells from disappearing, increases with each spell cast. After more than 5 rounds of combat, weariness will definitely begin to set in, assuming the caster is casting each round. By this time, a 3rd level spell will have a DC of 18 to avoid loss/fatigue.

I am going to test out the following on my campaign's casters (and I'm totally open to the ideas and revisions from others who have had a similar house rule, or who see a major flaw in this system):

Fatigue Check

• DC = 10 + Spell Level + 1 for each spell used after the first

• Fatigue Check = Caster Level + Relevant Ability Score (Wiz/Sorc = Int, Cler/Druid = Wis, etc.)

• Exclude 0-level spells; they will never cause fatigue and already have "unlimited use"

• Fatigue Track: 1st failure = Winded Condition, 2nd failure = Fatigued Condition, 3nd failure = Exhausted Condition, 4th failure = Unconscious Condition

Conditions

• Winded Condition (not in D20): A winded character can neither run nor charge and takes a –1 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the winded character to become exhausted. After 10 minutes of rest, winded characters are no longer winded.

• Fatigued Condition (per the Pathfinder condition): A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

• Exhausted Condition (per the Pathfinder condition): An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.

• Unconscious (per the Pathfinder condition): Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

Recovery (not in Pathfinder): A character rendered unconscious from fatigue makes a DC 10 Constitution check each round to become conscious (per the non-lethal recovery rules in Pathfinder). Once conscious, the character can recover along the Fatigue track (he awakens exhausted and must rest for 1 hour to become fatigued, and he must rest 8 hours to recover fully).

Magical and Skill-Based Recovery: A successful DC 15 Heal skill check will bring an unconscious character around. Additionally, a (second) DC 15 Heal skill check can improve an exhausted character to fatigued. Heal cannot reduce the Fatigued or Winded conditions. Additionally, spells such as Lesser Restoration work as normal to relieve fatigued conditions.

[Mach5RR]

I'm kinda curious about this fascination to convert True20 Magic to Pathfinder. Hasn't this already been done with True Sorcery? Sure it was written with 3.5 in mind, but it seems that it would be far easier to update those rules to PF.

The rules from it seem to what your trying to replicate.
Step 1 Choose a spell and determine the desired effect.
Step 2 Determine the spell effect’s DC including all augmentations.
Step 3 Determine casting time, which is done by subtracting your ranks in Spellcraft and the magnitude bonus from the modified Spellcraft DC of the effect.
Step 4 Cast the spell effect by spending the indicated number of actions.
Step 5 Roll a Spellcraft skill check against the spell effect’s DC. If you succeed, proceed to Step 6. If you fail, skip Step 6 and proceed to Step 7.
Step 6 Resolve spell’s effect and proceed to Step 7.
Step 7 Roll the spell’s drain and deduct your current spell energy from the total (minimum of 1). Take the remaining drain as nonlethal damage.

[Kendermage]

You might also want to check out Ultimate Magic which contains a freeform magic called Words of Power.